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Shop our favorite brands. Check out our wide selection of third-party gift cards. Shop now. Customer reviews. How are ratings calculated? Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon.

It also analyzes reviews to verify trustworthiness. Top reviews Most recent Top reviews. Top reviews from the United States. There was a problem filtering reviews right now. Please try again later. Verified Purchase. Very interesting and helpful read. I would suggest a little more editing for typos, but the content is good. My mules said they didn't mind the mistakes, but I would be happy to edit further editions of these books.

One person found this helpful. I really liked this book, I also have her other book of Why mules do this. I really can understand why they do what they do and how to work around it. They both are really great reads if you are interested in mules or have them!! I truly appreciate the comprehensive scope of this book.

I am training two zebra donkey hybrids and this has already proved very useful! Thank you! I am going to buy some other books by this author. There are so many spelling mistakes and several areas where she literally repeated herself word for word and sentence for sentence in the same paragraph or on the next page.

There are also several diagrams and pictures that are lacking readable text, almost like a really bad scan job. Information-wise this is a good book, but it just doesn't feel finished and more like an early draft. This book gives a lot of great information for working with and appreciating your mule.

The numerous grammatical mistakes are irritating. Lots of good advice and information delivered in an easy read. Still would like more info on how mules are different to train vs. This is a good book to get you started building your and your mules confidence. See all reviews. Top reviews from other countries. A brilliant book. Get it! Report abuse. What other items do customers buy after viewing this item? Pages with related products.

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Amazon Music Stream millions of songs. Amazon Advertising Find, attract, and engage customers. Amazon Drive Cloud storage from Amazon. My philosophy is very simple. You use the mildest bit to which that particular horse will reliably respond.

UNLESS you are doing high finesse work and know what you're doing, that is, such as high level dressage in a double bridle or vaquero work with a spade bit which I know nothing about. In that case, the 'harsher' bit is actually used to help achieve the goal of reducing the cues to the minimum. This is also why dressage riders use spurs.

For refinement and precision. Anky does not qualify as a good dressage rider. When I've seen videos of her riding, the horse wants her to get off. However, I would note. Some horses should not be ridden in a broken snaffle Mouth conformation is very important to look at when choosing a bit. And personally I know nothing about bosals, being a pure English person if I need extra brakes, I rather prefer a full cheek, which renders a one rein stop far more effective I like full cheeks, too Jennifer and cattypex, I agree, use only what you have to and when not needed hang it back up.

A full check snaffle is a good bit. I used them driving horses and it works really well. I also have started many horses in my life and continue to do so, with the philosophy of use the least amount of anything to get what you are looking for. The mikmar is not a tool I would use to get brakes on a horse. The mikmar in the right hands with a problem horse communicates softly and quietly very quickly and puts the horse at ease.

A horse that throws their head will stop throwing their head using the bit not because it hurts but because the bit communicates so well with the horse. I have seen horses that when wearing a snaffle throw their head so bad that they almost fall over, put the mikmar on their head and just start to ride as you would any horse and the horse would completely stop throwing their head in no more than a couple of 30 minute rides.

Like I said it is not for every horse or rider but it could be used on every horse by every rider and do just fine. The bit will not sore or hurt. It is like any bit, but is way more forgiving to a horse with a rider with bad hands. Paul, I don't get you. You have contradicted yourself a few times; like saying that the meanness of the single joint snaffle is what you use to get a young horse's attention, then saying you use the gentlest thing possible.

A new rider should stay on a good school horse until their hands are quiet. I don't care what Daddy bought them! I never had training wheels, and my bit progression as I learned was snaffle, pelham, curb, full bridle; at the same time leading rein, leading and bearing rein, neck rein and double reins. My horse progression was kid-safe old plug, friendly responsive horse needing a bit more control, more exciting horse, "hot" but well-trained horse, green horse, unridden horse.

Once he learned the bit was for communication, not torture, I hung it up. The best teacher is experience over time. Using gimmicks to get a desired result from either horse or rider, is just a hurry up. That's my not-so-humble opinion, anyway. Jennifer, agreed, esp. I am also a fan of the full cheek snaffle--the mother of my future foal works best in it. Paul said: "When you pull back on a snaffle it makes a V and the out side of the bit crushes inward and downward on a horses mouth.

I teach them the one rein stop, and I learned an even MORE amazing way to get a horse to stop and back that is actually working with both a bit and bitless that requires extremely little mouth pressure. I teach my students that when you ask for your horse to make a circle, you LIFT your inside rein--you don't pull it. Pulling is not an option. I'm not trying to argue with you, Paul, but bits are still gimmicks overall.

For the record, I do not believe in "natural" horsemanship--I had a John Lyons certified trainer tell me once that there is nothing natural about how we treat horses. Groundwork and learning to ride with your body and NOT focusing on the bit is where this happens. It's why the bitless bridle DOES work. In fact, I like it better because it guides the horse's whole head, not just his mouth.

I don't like Dr. Cook's bridle--to me it's not as effective as the Nurtural Bridle. The problem with getting more and more "stuff", the more we have to rely on others to "fix" our problems. Cars, appliances, horse tack, you name it. Good for those in the industry, bad for those who choose to ignore that fact!

However, I DO commend you for learning how the bits work and using them accordingly. I think that's very important in general when it comes to being an instructor--know your gadgets and how to use them! Paul, It's obvious from the links that you used to get here that your pimping for Mikmar. Deb Bennett, taken from an old Equus article. That led me to Dr. Oh man Good article - Deb Bennett doesn't get nearly the attention that she should.

We all should start a rental system for horse videos!!!!! What should we call it? I love Deb Bennett's stuff. Her article about true collection is my mantra! Yes, I agree with you, hndl. Paul has contradicted himself several times. I also learned English and Western equitation and showmanship on dead-broke plug horses. In fact, because I advanced so quickly, I had to move up to the more advanced horses because I had to be challenged by horses that would fight me here and there!

Everyone should learn to ride on an old plug so they can make the mistakes with a horse that's more forgiving. But I guess maybe I'm just a bit of a horse idealist there Maybe someday I'll have a barn full of lesson horses and when people come to me saying their horse won't gait, I can have them ride a lesson horse and learn very quickly WHY the horse won't gait!

Folks no contradiction, snaffles are not nice and if you think they are you are wrong. You must use a snaffle correctly and also use the correct one for the horse just as you would any curb bit. The two types of bits work different but both have their draw backs. I use a snaffle because it keeps a horses attention and two hands are better than one until the horse is ready. I am not pimping the mikmar bit, just telling you that what you are seeing in that bit is not what it does. Green riders need to be taught on their horse but that horse needs to be a broke well trained horse not a green horse.

You are correct nothing we do with a horse is natural, natural is out on the plains eating grass and not ever being touched. All bits are aids, they aid us to steer and stop our horse. Of course we use our whole body to do this, but the bit, bitless or bosal aids use to do this.

If you think that the good ole broke horse wants you to teach that green rider how to ride on him or her, your probably wrong. Dont you think that a good aid is worth your horses mouth and piece of mind even if the horse is broke. Folks it is easier to push a horse with the end of your finger vice using your palm. A bit is the same way. Well, the absolutely most heinous things featured in that post are Bob Hart's evil halter, the super-high port bit it just doesn't look RIGHT, even for an expert , and that twisted-wire thing.

Because it's so difficult to convey tone via writing, I'm going to state up front that I am not being snarky, I am asking a question that I think is legitimate and that I'm genuinely interested in hearing the answer to. Paul, you keep saying that the the snaffle is so harsh and that the Mikmar is so gentle.

I am having a difficult time visualizing this. I looked at the Mikmar web site hoping for some diagrams or videos, but couldn't find anything. Please pick one of the Mikmar bits, preferably that one shown in the OP with the string across the nose, since it's relatively complicated, and explain to me exactly where the pressure points are and what the forces are when one uses that bit, as compared to where the pressure points are and what the forces are on a simple eggbutt snaffle.

I really do want to understand the basis for your claims about the Mikmar, I'm just having a hard time getting a visual picture. The curb strap vs. I dunno if I agree with Paul that that Mikmar is a tool to develop good rider hands - I learned good hands by: a developing a good seat on the lungeline and then b good instruction on developing body awareness and c sarcastic trainers who said very inappropriate things about all the AQHA huntseat girls with their see-sawing hands thumbs down in their crotches and hunched shoulders.

And I can't handle that crank noseband. Why would you even want to put something on your horse called a Crank-anything? Horseflix already exists, and Dr. As for that Mikmar POS, 1. Narrow cord over the nose. Pull back, and the sensitive nose is pinched towards the lower jaw, and vice versa for the curb strap. Pull back, and that nasty bit pinches the horse's tongue and pokes the roof of the mouth. I will say that the shanks are bent in such a way as to keep the rider from being able to completely destroy the horse.

Still a gimmick, and a pretty nasty one. Ruthie, It is a very smooth bit round on edges cord does not pinch due to the fact pressure is placed in three places evenly. Talking about something you know nothing about. Flat round edges more coverage on the bars less likely to hurt the bars.

When a bit is smaller in circumference there is less of the bit setting on the bar and much greater pressure to the bar. Not hard do the math. Anyone ever notice how contradiction and bullshit, tend to have the same stench about them? I haven't had the time to gather things and point it all out, as it seems a few others have overlooked them.

Just because someone claims to have been doing something for XX number of years- doesn't mean they have been doing them right all that time, or have anything left to learn or build upon Thanks Cut-n-Jump! But by no means do I know everything, and would never say that I do. If you do meet someone that says they know it all, then run the other way. Not sure about contradiction, I use a snaffle because it does make a horse pay attention, I start with a very large and smooth snaffle and work may way down in size until I receive the responses I am looking for.

If the larger works, then great, also use it with as much care as I can. You should always be open to new things, every horse is different, what works with one might not work on another. I am just seeing a lot of folks here that think a snaffle is a kind bit? There is no kind bit, some kinder than others but the hands are what need to be kind.

If you do indeed work for Mikmar, then be honest about it. The horse and the rider need to understand one another, they also need to be on the same page. If the horse is a high level GP horse, then forget this whole conversation. Not many folks can ride one. But for your everyday "average" level of rider with the average level of knowledge and the average horse Stepping it up a notch or two requires learning on the part of the rider and the horse I think the Bit Level and Rider Level idea is awesome Most everyone would back you up!

I have a very happy and responsive horse under saddle with a fat three piece snaffle So, until we get this down, he will either have only his halter or the rubber bit It takes two and I need the "learning first"!! Trojan Mouse I am begining to get paranoid at what I have and feel like I need to toss everything and start over, although I mostly use snaffles Bits are something that just fry my brain. You go to a big show and there are walls floor to ceiling full of bits and I stand there with my mouth hanging open because I have not a clue, and I have asked for explanations but everyone has a different opinion and some bits look just nasty.

Dont work for mikmar. Just know a good thing when I see it work. Rubber bits can tear the bars faster than metal. Seen it done by a horse not the rider. Of course it was due to a stupid rider. Rider tied the horse with the reins, horse jerked up, back and side ways, rubber grabbed the bar and split split it. All bits are harsh, as I said.

By the way, I did say that a mikmar is not for every horse but can be for every horse. What this means is any bit can work on any horse, it depends on the hands. And yes, a good fat snaffle bit is a great place to start. I have a curb bit you would probably like, my mare seems to like it, it is like a nice big fat snaffle with a mullen mouth with a 2 inch shank, that is what I usually use to transition to a curb for young horses.

It is call a colt bit, really quite kind. Hard to get much leverage with, would not recommend to anyone with a horse with a hard head, they just seem to blow it off and act like it is not there. There is a Horseflix?! Why didn't I know this? Paul, you still didn't answer my question, you just re-stated the same stuff you've been saying all along. And I'm still not getting it. For example, you say the Mikmar mouthpiece lays flat across the bars of the horse's mouth and is more comfortable than the round snaffle.

But what happens when you pull on the reins? If the round snaffle mouthpiece rotates, it doesn't matter because its, well, round. If you have a flat mouthpiece with a port in the middle and it rotates, now you have the narrow edge of the mouthpiece digging into the bars of the mouth plus the port poking them in the roof of the mouth.

I don't understand how this is better. If I'm not visualizing this properly, then please explain it to me so that I can visualize it correctly. Go CNJ I really have no stomach for ramrods! I will put my money where my mouth is! I will not buy from any catalog that sells torture devices, unknowingly or knowingly! Yes a rubber bit can be ugly too, but you sir, can stop reading into my statements Where to start?

One thing is for sure, I will likely exceed bloggers character limit. Snacks and refreshments should be brought out too. Beer and popcorn anyone? The games are about to begin! That Bob Hart Jr. If it is your career- obvious display that you suck at it! Time for a change, that is loooong overdue Paul, your defense of them, attempts to explain how they work and why choose to use them, does nothing to support or increase your level of knowledge, let alone any credibility in any matter concerning the treatment or training of horses.

Were you testing the waters here before you exposed yourself? See the issue here, is that none of us have gotten to the point of using a torturous contraption such as any of those featured, because we know what the hell we are doing. Yes- any bit can be used in a manner which can make it deemed harsh. That depends on the hands holding the reins. But it also depends o how well the bridle is adjusted and where the bit sits in their mouth.

Control they do not have, because they lack the respect from their horse. That lack of respect is from not knowing how to handle their horse in the first place- so they go out seeking things that may intimidate or cause pain, thinking the horse will just submit. Many times the horses do, but only for a matter of time. When they have had enough- it gets ugly and damn fast.

People can get hurt or killed in the process. Would that be because the rider lacks the talent, skill or knowledge to be handling that particular horse? Sure sounds like it. Maybe the rider should be wearing it instead then? The horse, their comfort and safety should be one of the main concerns for any trainer.

If the horse is not comfortable or safe- you have failed to ensure that for them, in acting as their trainer. If the horse is a whack job with serious issues- many times it is a reaction, learned early on in response from poor handling, riding or training previously in the horses life.

Again, it boils down to people creating the issues. So you will encourage clients to use things you do not? No truer testament for the rest of us to believe anything you have to say. Not just clients, but a client with less experience? So if the horse reacts in a bad way do you expect them to know what to do? How to handle the situation? How to keep things from getting any worse? You are having them use these bits even at shows for warm up.

Doing so is another fine example of whoring yourself out to those who are paying you. You do what they wish, instead of what is best for their horse. It happens a lot and is a good example of how competition in the show ring has deteriorated to where it now resides. Failing to do so? Easy to see where you stand, and why things smell so bad when you are around. Say like, I dunno, one that is legal to use when showing? If your hands are that good , meaning quiet and gentle- then why would the mm be needed?

If you are doing such a great job as a trainer- why do you suddenly need to pay attention to how the horse reacts to your hands? You should already know! If your hands are quiet and the horse is moving as they should be- there is absolutely NO Need to switch over to using a correction bit. If the horse has issues that resort to the need of a correction bit being used- I would be willing to bet, it is because of poor handling at some point in their life.

Otherwise- if things are going well from start to finish- there is no need. Shall I continue? This was already 3 pages in Word… I can try to keep it a bit shorter. I remember visiting your website and being very impressed by what I saw.

Hope your farm is doing OK! You have convinced me I'm thankful that I'll never be in that position, because I'd probly get fired. And when it was pointed out about what happens when the bit rotates I DO think that a snaffle gets a colt's attention Hi Cattypex!! All is well here! Ponies are all fat and happy!

I still have the rescue TB mare too, 'cause I am so damn persnikety about where she goes. Getting ready for winter and my vacation back east! How are you and your horses doing? Ahem- either bit can be used to achieve Both poll flexion and lateral flexion. That is, if you know how to use them and how to achieve either one or a combination of both. What does, is how you use your hands, body and legs. Well if you know what you are doing and are consistent in your work with the horse- you should be able to get the same results.

I know a woman who does ride in a MM to practice jumping. There are a host of other issues involved in her case, but the use of the mm bit is not the resolution to any of it. So you looked into and eventually bought something you have repeatedly stated, you do not use.

Probably would have been better off saving your money then… If this bit was so helpful to probably most riders and their horse may be more relaxed- it sounds like the relaxation could also come from them learning how to ride better, quiet their hands or just stay off the horse altogether.

First of all, if there is any pain or fighting, there is an issue that a bit will not magically solve. Let the rider work on learning or fixing one thing at a time. Then because a few things like life got in the way, she sat until she was 4. Getting her going again was not an issue and we rode her until we sold her.

If your horse was not ready to flex and give, it seems to me there is an issue with your technique. Putting a correction bit in her mouth just shows you are willing to use gimmicky crap to cover up for your own shortcomings, rather than fix the problem in the first place.

You recommended looking at the bit and thinking carefully about how it works. In doing so, others may notice it could very well create far more issues than it will fix. No prob CP! I think you have come to expect such things from me. Mulerider- If you look at the bit in the OP with the cord over the nose, you will notice a few things when considering how it works. One of them being that if the reins are attached to the loop end of the cord, using one rein alone puts tension on the cord- which slides through the 'loops' and puts an amount of upward pressure on the other side of the bit, as well as tightening things around the nose and creating some amount of poll pressure as well.

Probably not the intended result that you wanted. Then look at it as if you were to clip the reins to the rings. The cord doesn't do anything and it works like a normal curb. No amount of sooper seekrit handling or over gentile hands needed there then, is there?

I guess common sense is not a common thing in Paul's world. Thank you! Thanks CG! Just doing my best to keep things on the sensable path and holding out good thoughts for the horses. Carry on. Rubber bits can be very bad as just any bit can be. Did not say you were bad with one. Just quit knockin the mikmar bits until you have used one and know what it is about. I always use a bit before I tell anyone to try it.

I have a mare that is a nut do to all the bad things that can happen to a horse, green riders, bad hands, bought for a kid. You name it it was done to her, I tried everything from soup to nuts on that mare and believe me when I say that the mikmar is the only thing that would work on her. She is pleasant to ride now, she no longer throws her head, does not act crazy and enjoys our rides.

Apparently you you do not read. I said that I personally would not use one unless there was a reason. Any green rider has bad hands, I work to shorten the time that they do. I am talking about riders and horses that have won year end high point at several local show series not just one. Just like any sport, horses get nervous and so do riders, you can work at home till the skin wears off your hands and it still does not get you completely ready for the show ring. Show horses are athletes and are asked to do more than the horse you take out for a spin.

Even though all my horses and riders trail ride and just take sunday spins because it is good for horse and rider. You have proved to me you know very little of what you speak about and tell half truths and never want to talk about the real spin on bits. As I said above snaffles are one of the highest port bits you can use. Showing horses can be fun for the horse and rider and I strive to make sure it is. If it is not fun for the horse and rider I work hard to make sure that it gets that way or I tell the rider to back off and do more work and try again.

But tension can get the best of any horse, you can work at the barn forever and still not match the atmosphere of a show, so you go ahead and live in the dark ages and I will continue to strive to do the best for horse and rider. I can tell you this, I had a wise man tell me one time that the more you ride a horse the better it gets, that meant to him ride it to town like he did when he was a boy and man, pull a plow with it and ride it to the dance after a hard day of pulling that plow. I could not do all that, but I did ride the 6 miles to town 5 days a week and most of the time rode across the farm and alot of other places vice taking the truck.

And that old man told me he would be better if I could have worked him with a plow and rode that many miles. He was smart and correct. So no bullshit just facts that you do not want to hear, a horse is not a pet they are live stock but the best friend I have ever had. I treat them with respect but expect them to do what I ask, just as you should.

I have owned hundreds of horses and started as many as 4 a week for 6 months out of the year for many years of my life, trained, shoed, and cared for them before me. Have had them throw me, sit on me roll over on me and break many of my bones, but when that cowboy needed his horse to rope off of the next week he was ready. So you can talk shit all you want but horses are not just for leisure and when I was working all those horses with problems that fought me no matter how kind I work to be, I wish that I would have found the mikmar earlier.

Find that passing on good knowledge is my duty. And one thing that I always answer when I am not sure about a bit or feed or supplement is I do not know but I can check into it for you if you want me to at no charge and tell you what I think if you want me to. I check the thing out, try it out and then give an honest opinion on the subject and also give them both sides of the story and people to talk to with pros and cons.

You know if you have not really tried a mikmar then dont talk about it. When I said I have found it to be a very sound and kind bit you would think that statement is just what it says "I" which means that I have used it myself, and worked with others when they use it. I would not turn a green rider lose with a mikmar without giving them instruction! By the way when you pull on one rein of a snaffle it does the same thing with the opposite side of the bit not to mention what it does with the ring or D ring on the out side of the mouth just like any other bit.

I will refrain about making comments about your common sense. I have a lot of common sense. Different snaffles work different ways and they keep the attention of a colt not because it is their first bit, it keeps their attention because they cant get away from it or ignore it. Perhaps someone who knows more can set me straight, but I thought that the idea was to teach a horse to come up from behind, lift the back, shoulders and neck and seek contact with the bridle.

Once that is accomplished the bit is there to provide support and guidance. I thought that if you were having problems with evading the bridle, it was indicitive of a larger training issue or discomfort on the horses end. I know that on a day to day basis there are problems with both horse and rider.

Stiffness, soreness, tiredness, distraction or plain old lack of interest on that particular day. That, to me anyways, means that I'm going to have to skip my training goals for the day and address the issues that exist. It doesn't do me or my horse any good to try and teach something if there is a problem that is going to interfere with communication of aides. In fact, I don't even believe that anything can be taught under those circumstances without doing so very poorly.

I've never seen a horse and rider have their issues fixed with bigger bits or complicated equipment. Sometimes those things do a pretty good job of masking the problem, but once that crutch is gone the problem rears it's ugly head again. Or once the discomfort of the original problem outweighs the discomfort of the bit, here comes the ugly problem again.

I love to learn and your knowledge and opinions are well respected by me. Yes evading the bit is a discomfort issue. Sometimes to the point of almost no return. If you go all the way back to the beginning and and still cant get anywhere then you have to try something different.

Sometimes the nutcracker effect of the snaffle just sends a horse into loop land and you just cant get their attention, going bit less is not the answer, the answer is to slowly work to find a bit that communicates with that animal. If you continue to try and tell me that a snaffle or bit less is the greatest thing on the earth you just continue to show me how little you really know. The Mikmar is not cruel, it is one of the most humane bits I have ever used. With that said, there are some horses that probably wont work with it.

Most horses would not even need it. With a horse that it does work on, I have found that it is not a crutch, and have also found when working with a green rider it would only be a crutch if they do not quit using it. I have found having a rider switch back and forth from the mikmar to a standard curb is a great way to give them goals to obtain with the standard bit.

And you know, I have found that the horse and rider have become closer and way the more better off for it. Not all green riders need to use this, but just as learning to play the piano which I found kinda aggravating not all people have the same learning curve and if they cant learn it they quit it. This tool helps the learning curve and preserves the horses mouth and the rider usually winds up a horseman or woman. By all means if you put this bit in a horses mouth and it dont work then pull it out, but as with any bit that does not mean 10 minutes.

Myself I do not use it on a horse unless I really have a big problem. But I do not hesitate to use it when that moment arrives. The reason for not using it is not because it is cruel, or can become a crutch but is because I can achieve what I want with a standard snaffle and curb what I am looking for.

That is what we all strive to do, I really strive to get there with every horse and rider. You know a lunge line and no bridle with someone instructing you how to ride is just a tool. Learning to ride with a halter bareback jumping on from a fence is just a tool. The mikmar is just another tool in the tool chest.

The right tool for the job at hand is why we have that peg board and buckets full of bits. Horses are not built the same and you have to strive to keep the horse and person you are training comfortable. Howe do you think all the snaffle bits were created. It was by someone thinking outside the box and will to take a chance and learn something. Bigger bit does not necessarily mean bad or torturous. Sometimes it is better and more gentle.

As I keep saying, dont talk about it until you have really given something a good honest try. And again, I do not work for mikmar. I have a question about the Sharon Carmarillo bit You said the squared off headstall hangers cause it to apply more pressure to the poll? What does the shape of the hangers have to do with how much pressure is applied to the poll? I am not sure who said that, I do recall somewhere in this mess something about that.

I am not positive but would say that a round hanger will not catch the bridle, it will just slide. A square hanger will catch the bridal and will not slide which seems to me would cause more poll pressure. Of course that is more than likely the desire result which makes since to me. As long as it is used correctly, seems to me that it would help with vertical flexion and help achieve it if that is what you need. Cant see anything wrong with that.

The bridle is not meant to just sit there and hold the bit. OK, maybe I am just stupid. I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent, but willing to admit that I might be mistaken. But, in spite of of huge volume of words Paul has typed here, I still don't get it.

For example: Paul says, "This tool helps the learning curve and preserves the horses mouth and the rider usually winds up a horseman or woman. I have found that the mikmar helps in this situation I will say one thing, though, this whole discussion has prompted me to haul out my book on bits and bitting and I think I will join Horseflix thanks, Ruthie , if just long enough to rent Dr.

Deb Bennett's bitting DVDs. So, I'd say it's a good thing. I said why earlier in the postings, It works so well due to providing an equal distribution of pressure across 3 points none overpowering the other. When you pull on the reins the it pulls in the shank, the soft nose band and the poll equally. There have been variations of the bit for years, mikmar to me has seemed to get it right. I think I kind of understand, Paul, about how you're saying that the Mikmar thing makes a weird bosal-like pull.

Oh, sorry Paul, I was asking the author, since she is the one who said that. It just didn't seem like a very educated thing to say, considering the whole purpose of a gag action bit IS to apply pressure to the poll. What I want to know is how the square headstall hangers is supposed to create more pressure to the poll vs. With the type of bit that the author showed, the headstall does not move-the mouthpiece does.

I would think that the narrow, rectangular hangers don't allow for the slippage that round ones would? Like, the headstall could only go ONE way -tighter - whenever the bit is engaged, instead of having a little play around the bit? Am I on the right track? It looks logical to me Cattypex, curb bits should be handled no different than a snaffle.

You are correct. I just wish all riders were taught that, then they would not have to bring their horse to me and I would not have to go through some of the things that I have had to go through. As for balance and one hand riding, I agree. I do not like it either. But when using a working horse sometimes it is a necessity and sometimes you even need to be able to just lay the reins on the saddle horn and let the horse do what you have taught him.

When I am talking about messing with a horse with one hand, I am talking about not keeping the head still due to the rider moving the hands a tad to much, not being off balance. If a rider I am working with is a little happy with the hands I mean a little, if it was a lot I would jerk them out of the saddle just as the old man that taught me did when I was just a pup the Mikmar is more forgiving and helps the horse and rider get through those little bit of rough times.

But I would only use the bit with a rider that needs it, or a horse that needs it. If you had a bunch of green riders and great lesson horses and a great trainer, the horses would love the trainer for using the combo bit. It truly is not as crazy as it looks. But as I was saying above, not for every horse or rider. Part 1: Paul, I just want to point out some things that I think you're really not getting.

I counted and we have tried 15 different bits on him, and NONE of them work. He becomes Seabiscuit when another horse is going faster than him. All I can do is hold on. The bit causes him to clamp down and strain against it, and the more I try to stop him, the faster he goes. His training has been inconsistent and that is our fault, but at the same time we know he has no respect for the bit and never has, and it's quite possible that the bit is painful to his mouth, no matter what kind it is.

It's only recently that I learned that he will listen when we go bitless. It is my responsibility to keep his training up, however, and that he not slip into bad habits because of green riders making mistakes. However, the old broke horse is my savior because he will not get upset or freak out if the rider makes a mistake.

The rider can learn the proper cues and what the different gaits feel like and still be safe. They can move up to a more advanced horse once they show they can handle the easy horse. The old broke horse is a Godsend and a staple to any good riding program.

Part 2: "Dont you think that a good aid is worth your horses mouth and piece of mind even if the horse is broke. A bit is a crutch, nothing more. Especially in the gaited horse world--I am constantly telling people that gaited horse riders are by far the worst because they ride with their hands, not their whole body.

Overall, I don't need to put something in my horse's mouth to aid him--I can learn to use my body to do it. So they will learn to ride the horse by using their legs and seat aids and NOT with their hands. They ride on the lounge line or in arenas with no bridle. To me, that is TRUE horsemanship. It never has been for me because I can use my whole body when I press my palm against the horse. But you know what's even easier? That all transfers to the saddle if you keep your mindset clear and focus on it.

But you just contradicted yourself--you said the smaller the diameter the harsher the bit, but it's easier to push a horse with your finger rather than your palm. So I assume that means if you want an easier response, then you go with the harsher bit. Don't you mean you want to go LESS harsh?

I understand your arguments, Paul, but I believe that you just aren't seeing the whole picture. If we only focus on the bit as our aid, then we are not doing right by the horse. Training is not about the bit--it's about your body and how you use it. I will check it out.

It's always hit and miss with that damn channel Paul, "All bits are harsh, as I said. P: Talking about something you know nothing about. Take something flat like a ruler. Put it across someplace tender, like the back of your hand, or your shin. The mikmar is a CURB bit. A flat bit, when rotated, becomes a narrow bit. A round bit stays round. P: it is like a nice big fat snaffle with a mullen mouth with a 2 inch shank, If it has a shank, it is NOT a snaffle.

When the reins attach to a shank, it is a curb. P: By the way when you pull on one rein of a snaffle it does the same thing with the opposite side of the bit Nope. When you neck rein into a turn, the horse will lead with his poll, because the pressure on the bit comes from the outside rein, which pulls his nose to the outside.

P: Different snaffles work different ways and they keep the attention of a colt not because it is their first bit, it keeps their attention because they cant get away from it or ignore it. P: Have had them throw me, sit on me roll over on me and break many of my bones, but when that cowboy needed his horse to rope off of the next week he was ready.

As I suspected, another Hurryup hurryup trainer. A horse I was breaking to ride tried to shake me off by rearing, and fell on me. He came over to me, sniffed me, and stood patiently while I hauled myself up by the stirrup, got on and rode him back to the barn. I wonder what would have happened if I had force-trained him? Paul says: " When using two hands, the inside rein is the leading rein, for obvious reasons.

To release the pressure, the horse moves into the pressure. To transition to neck-reining, you use the leading rein less and less, until the horse responds to the light pressure on the neck, by moving away from the pressure.

This same process teaches the rider to use less and less pressure, developing good hands. Neck reining is just that. Little to no pressure is put on the bit. A horse thoroughly trained to neck rein will go on a strap around the neck. Can you say, Stacy Westfall? Paul, "going bit less is not the answer, the answer is to slowly work to find a bit that communicates with that animal.

Okay, Mr. Our TWH gelding is proof of that, as is my friend's Percheron stallion who used to be mean and was about to be put down because of it, but it was due to poor handling on his owners' part. And this horse is at 2nd Level dressage in his bitless bridle--he can't go further only because he's not built for it. AGAIN, you are showing how ignorant you are by relying on the bit to tell the horse what to do.

It's too bad, really--true horsemanship comes from within and is not based on gadgets. Please, go train with a classical dressage trainer for a while and see what happens. Plus, if you are that closed minded about bits, then you really shouldn't be training horses, period. Continuing to argue with us will get you nowhere. We have experienced what using a snaffle or a bitless bridle correctly can do, so we know what works.

And he is absolutely correct. Thanks, Ruthie. My next post was going to be exactly what you said when he posted incorrectly about how the snaffle bit works and how a bit with a shank is NOT a snaffle. And of course how the how the horse that flipped over was cowboy-ready the next week. A true horseman will be willing to say "this horse is not ready yet" and accept the consequences for what they are. Although, that is why I don't make money in this business--I'm too honest!

Anyone who tells me my horse will be trained in 30 days is off the list. That is what I was getting at. And KP is right The bridle is AN aid, and of course it takes many forms. It's not the ONLY way to stop a horse, and only crappy riders think that it is. And a fat snaffle is only harsh if a the horse's mouth is damaged or very weirdly formed or b the rider HAULS on it, in which case I, too, would be inclined to drag them out of the saddle.

The whole purpose of a gag action bit is to rip the lips up to the horse's eyeballs. You can get poll pressure with a much milder bit. I'm not the author, but I can explain it. The squared cheek piece hangers DO apply more and direct pressure than rounded ones.

The square cheek piece holes "catch" immediately. Square holes DO increase leverage because there is no rolling of the bit within the cheekpiece. This is why a short shanked Kimberwicke actually produces more poll pressure than a short shanked, but rounded cheekpiece, Tom Thumb. Did the fishing scale test on this one The bit featured certainly does apply poll pressure. It's a nasty piece of work combining the square slots, twisted wire mouth, and curb application. Combining a twisted wire and a curb action gag is like putting a saw in your horse's mouth.

Paul, I'm thinking your last post was directed my way. Thanks for reiterating your previous statements. Although I did read and comprehend them the first couple of times. You seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at in my first post. That is okay, sometimes I am not nearly as perspicuous as I think. Not at any point did I state that a snaffle or bitless was the only way to ride a horse. If you are using a snaffle and it is acting as a nutcracker on the horses mouth, you are riding with too much hand in the first place.

I think if you go back to the real begining with a horse and you are still having trouble, you need to take a time out and evaluate your program. Maybe even yourself, if you go that far back and are still having trouble it might be good to ask someone with fresh eyes to take a look. If you go back to the begining and do it all over correctly so that the horse understands what is expected, you should be able to fix the problem.

Maybe not even all the way back, in some cases you only have to back track a few steps. I also attempted to communicate that relying on a piece of equipment to teach a student or problem solve is counterintuitive from my perspective. Obviously you and I have different ideas about that. Apparently that makes me ignorant in your opinion. Thats okay too. I often find that persons who feel defensive often use insults in an attempt to bully people into agreement or shame them into silence.

If you use a bit to problem solve, put it away only to get it out later or in the warm up pen for the same issue, you haven't really solved the problem. From my perspective it hasn't anything to do with whether a bit is too severe or not severe enough. Although, I have noticed that lots of people seem to think that some gear will replace the necessary skills for problem solving and educating both horse and rider. Don't go taking that last bit personally, it simply an observation I have made over the years.

It is clear to me that you and I come from different schools of thought on teaching and training. None of this is personal, try not to take it that way. So we are also clear on one other matter, I don't care if you work for mikmar or roto-rooter as long as you have good information to impart.

WiltedZebra, "I often find that persons who feel defensive often use insults in an attempt to bully people into agreement or shame them into silence. Or it just causes them not to comment because 1 they realize there's no way to reason with insults, or 2 it's just not worth it. He was talking to me about bitless, btw. Sure, it may not work for all horses, but it's still a great place I can go without worrying about hurting the horse's mouth anymore.

Tracy, BTW, thanks for the explanation as far as the fish scale is concerned. I am totally going to buy a fish scale now and give it a shot. WX can use "perspicuous" in a sentence. I will now weep a little tear of joy! Maybe it was show jumping I had to watch everything late, late at night, so everything was a big fat blur to me. I thought it was a good argument, though, that even a HOT horse doesn't necessarily need a bridle. I love a pretty bosal setup, with a handbraided noseband etc.

Nurtural bridle Folks, I ride bitless when needed, Did not say a curb was a snaffle, said the colt bit I have and use to transition young horses to a curb with is nice and fat, did not say that I start colts in it, you all really like to twist things, read all of it please. I know my grammar sucks but it is still readable.

Read people. Would not give anybody a horse that was not ready. Sometimes had to ride them 4 to 5 times in a 24hr period to have them ready to work, because that is what they did from sun up till after sundown all day and hard. The place for them to learn was out doing there job. I know you all think horse show should be abolished but it will not happen. The horse that wont stop, is do to some one pushing him into a snaffle and ruining his mouth, I have had to fix several of these horses, it is not easy but can be done in a short period of time with a ring full of cantering hunter jumpers and alot of circling.

I have been to the world a ava mo for the MFTHBA and have place in the top 5 in the world on several occasions, that was long ago. Gaited people do have a tendency to ride with their hands and not their seat.

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There was a problem filtering reviews right now. Please try again later. Verified Purchase. Very interesting and helpful read. I would suggest a little more editing for typos, but the content is good. My mules said they didn't mind the mistakes, but I would be happy to edit further editions of these books.

One person found this helpful. I really liked this book, I also have her other book of Why mules do this. I really can understand why they do what they do and how to work around it. They both are really great reads if you are interested in mules or have them!! I truly appreciate the comprehensive scope of this book. I am training two zebra donkey hybrids and this has already proved very useful! Thank you! I am going to buy some other books by this author. There are so many spelling mistakes and several areas where she literally repeated herself word for word and sentence for sentence in the same paragraph or on the next page.

There are also several diagrams and pictures that are lacking readable text, almost like a really bad scan job. Information-wise this is a good book, but it just doesn't feel finished and more like an early draft. This book gives a lot of great information for working with and appreciating your mule. The numerous grammatical mistakes are irritating. Lots of good advice and information delivered in an easy read.

Still would like more info on how mules are different to train vs. This is a good book to get you started building your and your mules confidence. See all reviews. Top reviews from other countries. A brilliant book. Get it! Report abuse. What other items do customers buy after viewing this item?

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ComiXology Thousands of Digital Comics. DPReview Digital Photography. East Dane Designer Men's Fashion. Shopbop Designer Fashion Brands. Deals and Shenanigans. I am not pimping the mikmar bit, just telling you that what you are seeing in that bit is not what it does. Green riders need to be taught on their horse but that horse needs to be a broke well trained horse not a green horse. You are correct nothing we do with a horse is natural, natural is out on the plains eating grass and not ever being touched.

All bits are aids, they aid us to steer and stop our horse. Of course we use our whole body to do this, but the bit, bitless or bosal aids use to do this. If you think that the good ole broke horse wants you to teach that green rider how to ride on him or her, your probably wrong. Dont you think that a good aid is worth your horses mouth and piece of mind even if the horse is broke. Folks it is easier to push a horse with the end of your finger vice using your palm.

A bit is the same way. Well, the absolutely most heinous things featured in that post are Bob Hart's evil halter, the super-high port bit it just doesn't look RIGHT, even for an expert , and that twisted-wire thing. Because it's so difficult to convey tone via writing, I'm going to state up front that I am not being snarky, I am asking a question that I think is legitimate and that I'm genuinely interested in hearing the answer to.

Paul, you keep saying that the the snaffle is so harsh and that the Mikmar is so gentle. I am having a difficult time visualizing this. I looked at the Mikmar web site hoping for some diagrams or videos, but couldn't find anything. Please pick one of the Mikmar bits, preferably that one shown in the OP with the string across the nose, since it's relatively complicated, and explain to me exactly where the pressure points are and what the forces are when one uses that bit, as compared to where the pressure points are and what the forces are on a simple eggbutt snaffle.

I really do want to understand the basis for your claims about the Mikmar, I'm just having a hard time getting a visual picture. The curb strap vs. I dunno if I agree with Paul that that Mikmar is a tool to develop good rider hands - I learned good hands by: a developing a good seat on the lungeline and then b good instruction on developing body awareness and c sarcastic trainers who said very inappropriate things about all the AQHA huntseat girls with their see-sawing hands thumbs down in their crotches and hunched shoulders.

And I can't handle that crank noseband. Why would you even want to put something on your horse called a Crank-anything? Horseflix already exists, and Dr. As for that Mikmar POS, 1. Narrow cord over the nose. Pull back, and the sensitive nose is pinched towards the lower jaw, and vice versa for the curb strap.

Pull back, and that nasty bit pinches the horse's tongue and pokes the roof of the mouth. I will say that the shanks are bent in such a way as to keep the rider from being able to completely destroy the horse. Still a gimmick, and a pretty nasty one.

Ruthie, It is a very smooth bit round on edges cord does not pinch due to the fact pressure is placed in three places evenly. Talking about something you know nothing about. Flat round edges more coverage on the bars less likely to hurt the bars. When a bit is smaller in circumference there is less of the bit setting on the bar and much greater pressure to the bar. Not hard do the math. Anyone ever notice how contradiction and bullshit, tend to have the same stench about them?

I haven't had the time to gather things and point it all out, as it seems a few others have overlooked them. Just because someone claims to have been doing something for XX number of years- doesn't mean they have been doing them right all that time, or have anything left to learn or build upon Thanks Cut-n-Jump!

But by no means do I know everything, and would never say that I do. If you do meet someone that says they know it all, then run the other way. Not sure about contradiction, I use a snaffle because it does make a horse pay attention, I start with a very large and smooth snaffle and work may way down in size until I receive the responses I am looking for.

If the larger works, then great, also use it with as much care as I can. You should always be open to new things, every horse is different, what works with one might not work on another. I am just seeing a lot of folks here that think a snaffle is a kind bit? There is no kind bit, some kinder than others but the hands are what need to be kind. If you do indeed work for Mikmar, then be honest about it. The horse and the rider need to understand one another, they also need to be on the same page.

If the horse is a high level GP horse, then forget this whole conversation. Not many folks can ride one. But for your everyday "average" level of rider with the average level of knowledge and the average horse Stepping it up a notch or two requires learning on the part of the rider and the horse I think the Bit Level and Rider Level idea is awesome Most everyone would back you up!

I have a very happy and responsive horse under saddle with a fat three piece snaffle So, until we get this down, he will either have only his halter or the rubber bit It takes two and I need the "learning first"!! Trojan Mouse I am begining to get paranoid at what I have and feel like I need to toss everything and start over, although I mostly use snaffles Bits are something that just fry my brain. You go to a big show and there are walls floor to ceiling full of bits and I stand there with my mouth hanging open because I have not a clue, and I have asked for explanations but everyone has a different opinion and some bits look just nasty.

Dont work for mikmar. Just know a good thing when I see it work. Rubber bits can tear the bars faster than metal. Seen it done by a horse not the rider. Of course it was due to a stupid rider. Rider tied the horse with the reins, horse jerked up, back and side ways, rubber grabbed the bar and split split it. All bits are harsh, as I said.

By the way, I did say that a mikmar is not for every horse but can be for every horse. What this means is any bit can work on any horse, it depends on the hands. And yes, a good fat snaffle bit is a great place to start. I have a curb bit you would probably like, my mare seems to like it, it is like a nice big fat snaffle with a mullen mouth with a 2 inch shank, that is what I usually use to transition to a curb for young horses. It is call a colt bit, really quite kind.

Hard to get much leverage with, would not recommend to anyone with a horse with a hard head, they just seem to blow it off and act like it is not there. There is a Horseflix?! Why didn't I know this? Paul, you still didn't answer my question, you just re-stated the same stuff you've been saying all along. And I'm still not getting it. For example, you say the Mikmar mouthpiece lays flat across the bars of the horse's mouth and is more comfortable than the round snaffle. But what happens when you pull on the reins?

If the round snaffle mouthpiece rotates, it doesn't matter because its, well, round. If you have a flat mouthpiece with a port in the middle and it rotates, now you have the narrow edge of the mouthpiece digging into the bars of the mouth plus the port poking them in the roof of the mouth. I don't understand how this is better.

If I'm not visualizing this properly, then please explain it to me so that I can visualize it correctly. Go CNJ I really have no stomach for ramrods! I will put my money where my mouth is! I will not buy from any catalog that sells torture devices, unknowingly or knowingly! Yes a rubber bit can be ugly too, but you sir, can stop reading into my statements Where to start?

One thing is for sure, I will likely exceed bloggers character limit. Snacks and refreshments should be brought out too. Beer and popcorn anyone? The games are about to begin! That Bob Hart Jr. If it is your career- obvious display that you suck at it!

Time for a change, that is loooong overdue Paul, your defense of them, attempts to explain how they work and why choose to use them, does nothing to support or increase your level of knowledge, let alone any credibility in any matter concerning the treatment or training of horses.

Were you testing the waters here before you exposed yourself? See the issue here, is that none of us have gotten to the point of using a torturous contraption such as any of those featured, because we know what the hell we are doing. Yes- any bit can be used in a manner which can make it deemed harsh. That depends on the hands holding the reins. But it also depends o how well the bridle is adjusted and where the bit sits in their mouth. Control they do not have, because they lack the respect from their horse.

That lack of respect is from not knowing how to handle their horse in the first place- so they go out seeking things that may intimidate or cause pain, thinking the horse will just submit. Many times the horses do, but only for a matter of time. When they have had enough- it gets ugly and damn fast. People can get hurt or killed in the process. Would that be because the rider lacks the talent, skill or knowledge to be handling that particular horse?

Sure sounds like it. Maybe the rider should be wearing it instead then? The horse, their comfort and safety should be one of the main concerns for any trainer. If the horse is not comfortable or safe- you have failed to ensure that for them, in acting as their trainer. If the horse is a whack job with serious issues- many times it is a reaction, learned early on in response from poor handling, riding or training previously in the horses life. Again, it boils down to people creating the issues.

So you will encourage clients to use things you do not? No truer testament for the rest of us to believe anything you have to say. Not just clients, but a client with less experience? So if the horse reacts in a bad way do you expect them to know what to do? How to handle the situation? How to keep things from getting any worse? You are having them use these bits even at shows for warm up. Doing so is another fine example of whoring yourself out to those who are paying you.

You do what they wish, instead of what is best for their horse. It happens a lot and is a good example of how competition in the show ring has deteriorated to where it now resides. Failing to do so? Easy to see where you stand, and why things smell so bad when you are around.

Say like, I dunno, one that is legal to use when showing? If your hands are that good , meaning quiet and gentle- then why would the mm be needed? If you are doing such a great job as a trainer- why do you suddenly need to pay attention to how the horse reacts to your hands? You should already know! If your hands are quiet and the horse is moving as they should be- there is absolutely NO Need to switch over to using a correction bit. If the horse has issues that resort to the need of a correction bit being used- I would be willing to bet, it is because of poor handling at some point in their life.

Otherwise- if things are going well from start to finish- there is no need. Shall I continue? This was already 3 pages in Word… I can try to keep it a bit shorter. I remember visiting your website and being very impressed by what I saw. Hope your farm is doing OK! You have convinced me I'm thankful that I'll never be in that position, because I'd probly get fired.

And when it was pointed out about what happens when the bit rotates I DO think that a snaffle gets a colt's attention Hi Cattypex!! All is well here! Ponies are all fat and happy! I still have the rescue TB mare too, 'cause I am so damn persnikety about where she goes. Getting ready for winter and my vacation back east! How are you and your horses doing? Ahem- either bit can be used to achieve Both poll flexion and lateral flexion.

That is, if you know how to use them and how to achieve either one or a combination of both. What does, is how you use your hands, body and legs. Well if you know what you are doing and are consistent in your work with the horse- you should be able to get the same results.

I know a woman who does ride in a MM to practice jumping. There are a host of other issues involved in her case, but the use of the mm bit is not the resolution to any of it. So you looked into and eventually bought something you have repeatedly stated, you do not use. Probably would have been better off saving your money then… If this bit was so helpful to probably most riders and their horse may be more relaxed- it sounds like the relaxation could also come from them learning how to ride better, quiet their hands or just stay off the horse altogether.

First of all, if there is any pain or fighting, there is an issue that a bit will not magically solve. Let the rider work on learning or fixing one thing at a time. Then because a few things like life got in the way, she sat until she was 4.

Getting her going again was not an issue and we rode her until we sold her. If your horse was not ready to flex and give, it seems to me there is an issue with your technique. Putting a correction bit in her mouth just shows you are willing to use gimmicky crap to cover up for your own shortcomings, rather than fix the problem in the first place. You recommended looking at the bit and thinking carefully about how it works. In doing so, others may notice it could very well create far more issues than it will fix.

No prob CP! I think you have come to expect such things from me. Mulerider- If you look at the bit in the OP with the cord over the nose, you will notice a few things when considering how it works. One of them being that if the reins are attached to the loop end of the cord, using one rein alone puts tension on the cord- which slides through the 'loops' and puts an amount of upward pressure on the other side of the bit, as well as tightening things around the nose and creating some amount of poll pressure as well.

Probably not the intended result that you wanted. Then look at it as if you were to clip the reins to the rings. The cord doesn't do anything and it works like a normal curb. No amount of sooper seekrit handling or over gentile hands needed there then, is there?

I guess common sense is not a common thing in Paul's world. Thank you! Thanks CG! Just doing my best to keep things on the sensable path and holding out good thoughts for the horses. Carry on. Rubber bits can be very bad as just any bit can be. Did not say you were bad with one. Just quit knockin the mikmar bits until you have used one and know what it is about. I always use a bit before I tell anyone to try it. I have a mare that is a nut do to all the bad things that can happen to a horse, green riders, bad hands, bought for a kid.

You name it it was done to her, I tried everything from soup to nuts on that mare and believe me when I say that the mikmar is the only thing that would work on her. She is pleasant to ride now, she no longer throws her head, does not act crazy and enjoys our rides. Apparently you you do not read. I said that I personally would not use one unless there was a reason. Any green rider has bad hands, I work to shorten the time that they do. I am talking about riders and horses that have won year end high point at several local show series not just one.

Just like any sport, horses get nervous and so do riders, you can work at home till the skin wears off your hands and it still does not get you completely ready for the show ring. Show horses are athletes and are asked to do more than the horse you take out for a spin. Even though all my horses and riders trail ride and just take sunday spins because it is good for horse and rider.

You have proved to me you know very little of what you speak about and tell half truths and never want to talk about the real spin on bits. As I said above snaffles are one of the highest port bits you can use. Showing horses can be fun for the horse and rider and I strive to make sure it is. If it is not fun for the horse and rider I work hard to make sure that it gets that way or I tell the rider to back off and do more work and try again. But tension can get the best of any horse, you can work at the barn forever and still not match the atmosphere of a show, so you go ahead and live in the dark ages and I will continue to strive to do the best for horse and rider.

I can tell you this, I had a wise man tell me one time that the more you ride a horse the better it gets, that meant to him ride it to town like he did when he was a boy and man, pull a plow with it and ride it to the dance after a hard day of pulling that plow. I could not do all that, but I did ride the 6 miles to town 5 days a week and most of the time rode across the farm and alot of other places vice taking the truck.

And that old man told me he would be better if I could have worked him with a plow and rode that many miles. He was smart and correct. So no bullshit just facts that you do not want to hear, a horse is not a pet they are live stock but the best friend I have ever had. I treat them with respect but expect them to do what I ask, just as you should. I have owned hundreds of horses and started as many as 4 a week for 6 months out of the year for many years of my life, trained, shoed, and cared for them before me.

Have had them throw me, sit on me roll over on me and break many of my bones, but when that cowboy needed his horse to rope off of the next week he was ready. So you can talk shit all you want but horses are not just for leisure and when I was working all those horses with problems that fought me no matter how kind I work to be, I wish that I would have found the mikmar earlier.

Find that passing on good knowledge is my duty. And one thing that I always answer when I am not sure about a bit or feed or supplement is I do not know but I can check into it for you if you want me to at no charge and tell you what I think if you want me to.

I check the thing out, try it out and then give an honest opinion on the subject and also give them both sides of the story and people to talk to with pros and cons. You know if you have not really tried a mikmar then dont talk about it. When I said I have found it to be a very sound and kind bit you would think that statement is just what it says "I" which means that I have used it myself, and worked with others when they use it.

I would not turn a green rider lose with a mikmar without giving them instruction! By the way when you pull on one rein of a snaffle it does the same thing with the opposite side of the bit not to mention what it does with the ring or D ring on the out side of the mouth just like any other bit.

I will refrain about making comments about your common sense. I have a lot of common sense. Different snaffles work different ways and they keep the attention of a colt not because it is their first bit, it keeps their attention because they cant get away from it or ignore it. Perhaps someone who knows more can set me straight, but I thought that the idea was to teach a horse to come up from behind, lift the back, shoulders and neck and seek contact with the bridle.

Once that is accomplished the bit is there to provide support and guidance. I thought that if you were having problems with evading the bridle, it was indicitive of a larger training issue or discomfort on the horses end. I know that on a day to day basis there are problems with both horse and rider. Stiffness, soreness, tiredness, distraction or plain old lack of interest on that particular day.

That, to me anyways, means that I'm going to have to skip my training goals for the day and address the issues that exist. It doesn't do me or my horse any good to try and teach something if there is a problem that is going to interfere with communication of aides. In fact, I don't even believe that anything can be taught under those circumstances without doing so very poorly. I've never seen a horse and rider have their issues fixed with bigger bits or complicated equipment.

Sometimes those things do a pretty good job of masking the problem, but once that crutch is gone the problem rears it's ugly head again. Or once the discomfort of the original problem outweighs the discomfort of the bit, here comes the ugly problem again. I love to learn and your knowledge and opinions are well respected by me. Yes evading the bit is a discomfort issue.

Sometimes to the point of almost no return. If you go all the way back to the beginning and and still cant get anywhere then you have to try something different. Sometimes the nutcracker effect of the snaffle just sends a horse into loop land and you just cant get their attention, going bit less is not the answer, the answer is to slowly work to find a bit that communicates with that animal.

If you continue to try and tell me that a snaffle or bit less is the greatest thing on the earth you just continue to show me how little you really know. The Mikmar is not cruel, it is one of the most humane bits I have ever used. With that said, there are some horses that probably wont work with it. Most horses would not even need it.

With a horse that it does work on, I have found that it is not a crutch, and have also found when working with a green rider it would only be a crutch if they do not quit using it. I have found having a rider switch back and forth from the mikmar to a standard curb is a great way to give them goals to obtain with the standard bit. And you know, I have found that the horse and rider have become closer and way the more better off for it.

Not all green riders need to use this, but just as learning to play the piano which I found kinda aggravating not all people have the same learning curve and if they cant learn it they quit it. This tool helps the learning curve and preserves the horses mouth and the rider usually winds up a horseman or woman.

By all means if you put this bit in a horses mouth and it dont work then pull it out, but as with any bit that does not mean 10 minutes. Myself I do not use it on a horse unless I really have a big problem. But I do not hesitate to use it when that moment arrives.

The reason for not using it is not because it is cruel, or can become a crutch but is because I can achieve what I want with a standard snaffle and curb what I am looking for. That is what we all strive to do, I really strive to get there with every horse and rider. You know a lunge line and no bridle with someone instructing you how to ride is just a tool. Learning to ride with a halter bareback jumping on from a fence is just a tool. The mikmar is just another tool in the tool chest.

The right tool for the job at hand is why we have that peg board and buckets full of bits. Horses are not built the same and you have to strive to keep the horse and person you are training comfortable. Howe do you think all the snaffle bits were created. It was by someone thinking outside the box and will to take a chance and learn something.

Bigger bit does not necessarily mean bad or torturous. Sometimes it is better and more gentle. As I keep saying, dont talk about it until you have really given something a good honest try. And again, I do not work for mikmar. I have a question about the Sharon Carmarillo bit You said the squared off headstall hangers cause it to apply more pressure to the poll?

What does the shape of the hangers have to do with how much pressure is applied to the poll? I am not sure who said that, I do recall somewhere in this mess something about that. I am not positive but would say that a round hanger will not catch the bridle, it will just slide. A square hanger will catch the bridal and will not slide which seems to me would cause more poll pressure. Of course that is more than likely the desire result which makes since to me. As long as it is used correctly, seems to me that it would help with vertical flexion and help achieve it if that is what you need.

Cant see anything wrong with that. The bridle is not meant to just sit there and hold the bit. OK, maybe I am just stupid. I like to think I'm reasonably intelligent, but willing to admit that I might be mistaken. But, in spite of of huge volume of words Paul has typed here, I still don't get it. For example: Paul says, "This tool helps the learning curve and preserves the horses mouth and the rider usually winds up a horseman or woman.

I have found that the mikmar helps in this situation I will say one thing, though, this whole discussion has prompted me to haul out my book on bits and bitting and I think I will join Horseflix thanks, Ruthie , if just long enough to rent Dr.

Deb Bennett's bitting DVDs. So, I'd say it's a good thing. I said why earlier in the postings, It works so well due to providing an equal distribution of pressure across 3 points none overpowering the other. When you pull on the reins the it pulls in the shank, the soft nose band and the poll equally. There have been variations of the bit for years, mikmar to me has seemed to get it right. I think I kind of understand, Paul, about how you're saying that the Mikmar thing makes a weird bosal-like pull.

Oh, sorry Paul, I was asking the author, since she is the one who said that. It just didn't seem like a very educated thing to say, considering the whole purpose of a gag action bit IS to apply pressure to the poll. What I want to know is how the square headstall hangers is supposed to create more pressure to the poll vs. With the type of bit that the author showed, the headstall does not move-the mouthpiece does.

I would think that the narrow, rectangular hangers don't allow for the slippage that round ones would? Like, the headstall could only go ONE way -tighter - whenever the bit is engaged, instead of having a little play around the bit? Am I on the right track? It looks logical to me Cattypex, curb bits should be handled no different than a snaffle. You are correct.

I just wish all riders were taught that, then they would not have to bring their horse to me and I would not have to go through some of the things that I have had to go through. As for balance and one hand riding, I agree. I do not like it either. But when using a working horse sometimes it is a necessity and sometimes you even need to be able to just lay the reins on the saddle horn and let the horse do what you have taught him. When I am talking about messing with a horse with one hand, I am talking about not keeping the head still due to the rider moving the hands a tad to much, not being off balance.

If a rider I am working with is a little happy with the hands I mean a little, if it was a lot I would jerk them out of the saddle just as the old man that taught me did when I was just a pup the Mikmar is more forgiving and helps the horse and rider get through those little bit of rough times. But I would only use the bit with a rider that needs it, or a horse that needs it. If you had a bunch of green riders and great lesson horses and a great trainer, the horses would love the trainer for using the combo bit.

It truly is not as crazy as it looks. But as I was saying above, not for every horse or rider. Part 1: Paul, I just want to point out some things that I think you're really not getting. I counted and we have tried 15 different bits on him, and NONE of them work. He becomes Seabiscuit when another horse is going faster than him. All I can do is hold on. The bit causes him to clamp down and strain against it, and the more I try to stop him, the faster he goes. His training has been inconsistent and that is our fault, but at the same time we know he has no respect for the bit and never has, and it's quite possible that the bit is painful to his mouth, no matter what kind it is.

It's only recently that I learned that he will listen when we go bitless. It is my responsibility to keep his training up, however, and that he not slip into bad habits because of green riders making mistakes. However, the old broke horse is my savior because he will not get upset or freak out if the rider makes a mistake. The rider can learn the proper cues and what the different gaits feel like and still be safe. They can move up to a more advanced horse once they show they can handle the easy horse.

The old broke horse is a Godsend and a staple to any good riding program. Part 2: "Dont you think that a good aid is worth your horses mouth and piece of mind even if the horse is broke. A bit is a crutch, nothing more. Especially in the gaited horse world--I am constantly telling people that gaited horse riders are by far the worst because they ride with their hands, not their whole body. Overall, I don't need to put something in my horse's mouth to aid him--I can learn to use my body to do it.

So they will learn to ride the horse by using their legs and seat aids and NOT with their hands. They ride on the lounge line or in arenas with no bridle. To me, that is TRUE horsemanship. It never has been for me because I can use my whole body when I press my palm against the horse. But you know what's even easier? That all transfers to the saddle if you keep your mindset clear and focus on it. But you just contradicted yourself--you said the smaller the diameter the harsher the bit, but it's easier to push a horse with your finger rather than your palm.

So I assume that means if you want an easier response, then you go with the harsher bit. Don't you mean you want to go LESS harsh? I understand your arguments, Paul, but I believe that you just aren't seeing the whole picture. If we only focus on the bit as our aid, then we are not doing right by the horse. Training is not about the bit--it's about your body and how you use it.

I will check it out. It's always hit and miss with that damn channel Paul, "All bits are harsh, as I said. P: Talking about something you know nothing about. Take something flat like a ruler. Put it across someplace tender, like the back of your hand, or your shin. The mikmar is a CURB bit. A flat bit, when rotated, becomes a narrow bit. A round bit stays round. P: it is like a nice big fat snaffle with a mullen mouth with a 2 inch shank, If it has a shank, it is NOT a snaffle.

When the reins attach to a shank, it is a curb. P: By the way when you pull on one rein of a snaffle it does the same thing with the opposite side of the bit Nope. When you neck rein into a turn, the horse will lead with his poll, because the pressure on the bit comes from the outside rein, which pulls his nose to the outside. P: Different snaffles work different ways and they keep the attention of a colt not because it is their first bit, it keeps their attention because they cant get away from it or ignore it.

P: Have had them throw me, sit on me roll over on me and break many of my bones, but when that cowboy needed his horse to rope off of the next week he was ready. As I suspected, another Hurryup hurryup trainer. A horse I was breaking to ride tried to shake me off by rearing, and fell on me. He came over to me, sniffed me, and stood patiently while I hauled myself up by the stirrup, got on and rode him back to the barn.

I wonder what would have happened if I had force-trained him? Paul says: " When using two hands, the inside rein is the leading rein, for obvious reasons. To release the pressure, the horse moves into the pressure. To transition to neck-reining, you use the leading rein less and less, until the horse responds to the light pressure on the neck, by moving away from the pressure. This same process teaches the rider to use less and less pressure, developing good hands. Neck reining is just that.

Little to no pressure is put on the bit. A horse thoroughly trained to neck rein will go on a strap around the neck. Can you say, Stacy Westfall? Paul, "going bit less is not the answer, the answer is to slowly work to find a bit that communicates with that animal. Okay, Mr. Our TWH gelding is proof of that, as is my friend's Percheron stallion who used to be mean and was about to be put down because of it, but it was due to poor handling on his owners' part.

And this horse is at 2nd Level dressage in his bitless bridle--he can't go further only because he's not built for it. AGAIN, you are showing how ignorant you are by relying on the bit to tell the horse what to do. It's too bad, really--true horsemanship comes from within and is not based on gadgets. Please, go train with a classical dressage trainer for a while and see what happens. Plus, if you are that closed minded about bits, then you really shouldn't be training horses, period.

Continuing to argue with us will get you nowhere. We have experienced what using a snaffle or a bitless bridle correctly can do, so we know what works. And he is absolutely correct. Thanks, Ruthie. My next post was going to be exactly what you said when he posted incorrectly about how the snaffle bit works and how a bit with a shank is NOT a snaffle. And of course how the how the horse that flipped over was cowboy-ready the next week. A true horseman will be willing to say "this horse is not ready yet" and accept the consequences for what they are.

Although, that is why I don't make money in this business--I'm too honest! Anyone who tells me my horse will be trained in 30 days is off the list. That is what I was getting at. And KP is right The bridle is AN aid, and of course it takes many forms. It's not the ONLY way to stop a horse, and only crappy riders think that it is. And a fat snaffle is only harsh if a the horse's mouth is damaged or very weirdly formed or b the rider HAULS on it, in which case I, too, would be inclined to drag them out of the saddle.

The whole purpose of a gag action bit is to rip the lips up to the horse's eyeballs. You can get poll pressure with a much milder bit. I'm not the author, but I can explain it. The squared cheek piece hangers DO apply more and direct pressure than rounded ones. The square cheek piece holes "catch" immediately. Square holes DO increase leverage because there is no rolling of the bit within the cheekpiece. This is why a short shanked Kimberwicke actually produces more poll pressure than a short shanked, but rounded cheekpiece, Tom Thumb.

Did the fishing scale test on this one The bit featured certainly does apply poll pressure. It's a nasty piece of work combining the square slots, twisted wire mouth, and curb application. Combining a twisted wire and a curb action gag is like putting a saw in your horse's mouth.

Paul, I'm thinking your last post was directed my way. Thanks for reiterating your previous statements. Although I did read and comprehend them the first couple of times. You seem to have misunderstood what I was getting at in my first post. That is okay, sometimes I am not nearly as perspicuous as I think. Not at any point did I state that a snaffle or bitless was the only way to ride a horse.

If you are using a snaffle and it is acting as a nutcracker on the horses mouth, you are riding with too much hand in the first place. I think if you go back to the real begining with a horse and you are still having trouble, you need to take a time out and evaluate your program. Maybe even yourself, if you go that far back and are still having trouble it might be good to ask someone with fresh eyes to take a look.

If you go back to the begining and do it all over correctly so that the horse understands what is expected, you should be able to fix the problem. Maybe not even all the way back, in some cases you only have to back track a few steps. I also attempted to communicate that relying on a piece of equipment to teach a student or problem solve is counterintuitive from my perspective. Obviously you and I have different ideas about that. Apparently that makes me ignorant in your opinion.

Thats okay too. I often find that persons who feel defensive often use insults in an attempt to bully people into agreement or shame them into silence. If you use a bit to problem solve, put it away only to get it out later or in the warm up pen for the same issue, you haven't really solved the problem.

From my perspective it hasn't anything to do with whether a bit is too severe or not severe enough. Although, I have noticed that lots of people seem to think that some gear will replace the necessary skills for problem solving and educating both horse and rider. Don't go taking that last bit personally, it simply an observation I have made over the years. It is clear to me that you and I come from different schools of thought on teaching and training.

None of this is personal, try not to take it that way. So we are also clear on one other matter, I don't care if you work for mikmar or roto-rooter as long as you have good information to impart. WiltedZebra, "I often find that persons who feel defensive often use insults in an attempt to bully people into agreement or shame them into silence. Or it just causes them not to comment because 1 they realize there's no way to reason with insults, or 2 it's just not worth it.

He was talking to me about bitless, btw. Sure, it may not work for all horses, but it's still a great place I can go without worrying about hurting the horse's mouth anymore. Tracy, BTW, thanks for the explanation as far as the fish scale is concerned. I am totally going to buy a fish scale now and give it a shot. WX can use "perspicuous" in a sentence. I will now weep a little tear of joy! Maybe it was show jumping I had to watch everything late, late at night, so everything was a big fat blur to me.

I thought it was a good argument, though, that even a HOT horse doesn't necessarily need a bridle. I love a pretty bosal setup, with a handbraided noseband etc. Nurtural bridle Folks, I ride bitless when needed, Did not say a curb was a snaffle, said the colt bit I have and use to transition young horses to a curb with is nice and fat, did not say that I start colts in it, you all really like to twist things, read all of it please.

I know my grammar sucks but it is still readable. Read people. Would not give anybody a horse that was not ready. Sometimes had to ride them 4 to 5 times in a 24hr period to have them ready to work, because that is what they did from sun up till after sundown all day and hard. The place for them to learn was out doing there job. I know you all think horse show should be abolished but it will not happen.

The horse that wont stop, is do to some one pushing him into a snaffle and ruining his mouth, I have had to fix several of these horses, it is not easy but can be done in a short period of time with a ring full of cantering hunter jumpers and alot of circling. I have been to the world a ava mo for the MFTHBA and have place in the top 5 in the world on several occasions, that was long ago.

Gaited people do have a tendency to ride with their hands and not their seat. I was taught to do both, the MO Foxtrotter is used for numerous jobs all the way from a pleasure horse to pulling a plow to cutting cattle and even running barrels and are quite good at it. Never rush the basics, takes me about on hour or two to break the average colt.

Usually ride them in the round pen for a bit and then head out and give them a spin to see how they will do. Have found most do just fine. I know you experts think you have it down, and that you know it all.

But I will tell you, I do not know it all. But I do know this, most of the horses I get have been trained by your kind, bought by someone and then wind up with me to be re-started and taught not to hurt anyone. I have a horse that I can ride just about any western equitation pattern without a bridle.

I use aids to make it easier on the horse to learn what I am asking for. I have found if I get to start the horse, aids usually do not have to be used. I have done things the way Parelli and others do, but you know I was doing them in the 60's and 70's before people knew who they were. The things they do have been around along time. Longer than you all and I. I do not feel defensive or like a bully, I feel that this web blog is a bunch of folks that feel that way and bully people into thinking their way, if I did not feel this way I would not have said anything.

You all do things the way you want but I will point out again, if you dont know about a product and have not personally used it, dont knock it or try and bully people into not using it. I am not bulling you into using it. Use it or not I dont care either way, just stop talking bad about something you know nothing about. I train horses for the most part the same way most of you do.

There is one difference, I have figured out that you can use a tool to better communicate quicker to the horse what it is we are trying to accomplish and then put it up and continue on the way we started with the snaffle or curb or halter or bitless or for my horse bridle less sometimes.

Depending on what I am trying to do. I am not questioning anybodies skills here. All snaffles work off of the nutcracker effect no matter how gentle you use it. That is why it works. I will refrain from saying what I think about this web site. I as a professional would never start a blog like this or web site like this. Its amazing that I even bothered to write anything. Be truthful to yourselves, snaffles can be and are not nice.

A Bosal can take the hide off the nose of a horse no matter how gentle you are trying to be, and a bitless bridle works due to the fact that it causes discomfort when you pull on the rein, grant it the discomfort from a bitless is very little.

How little discomfort a Mikmar training bit has would probably surprise you. I would never bully anyone into using something they do not want to use! Parelli rides his mare with a curb. One thing I want you to know, when I talk about getting the horse to the cowboy in a week, it was not a finished horse, just a started horse that was not scared to learn his job or hurt the cowboy. It takes a long time to finish a horse, and I really feel that no horse just as any good trainer is never finished.

There are always new things to learn and train with and on. By the way, the point about the end of your finger is a comparative thing. In ground work you work with your whole body. If the horse does not respond and move out of your face, you touch with your whole body.

If that does not work then use your palm, still no response then the simple push of the end of the finger will move the horse. And surprise it causes very little excitement, it usually simply moves the horse. Podhajsky would have thrown a royal-ass-kicking-horse-saving-beat-the-rider-with-a-baseball-bat-kind-of hissy fit if he had ever seen that stuff. Here's one story I like to tell about bits and bitting. A large English lesson barn had a nice pony Nice conformation, pretty color This was a horse who freaked out if you touched his flanks lightly.

A horse that regularly took off with people, hollowing his back, throwing his head up and rushing forward. And guess what? The more the rider pulled on the reins, the faster he went. This is the horse who taught me what the idiot who was supposed to be teaching me to ride did not seem to even know herself. This is the horse on which I learned to use the inside leg to rebalance the horse and on which I learned to keep my hands low, quiet and soft.

If you released the reins and used the inside leg, that horse came right back to you And this was in a fat Eggbutt snaffle. A mild bit. Eventually the trainer gave up and sold Neurotic Boy to one of the other students. She immediately put him in a rubber snaffle. Within a week, quiet, well behaved horse. Mild is relative to the horse. On this horse, a thick-mouthed eggbutt was having the same effect I've seen a curb bit have on soft mouthed horses They are not something you want to have a green rider learn with.

I think you made your point You sound juuust like one of my neighbors down the road He lives by what he was told by the so called "cowboys" in Nebraska It's actually Funny Shit to me. Or Fall a lot! There is no need to defend tack or purpose of tack There is a need to defend opinion THIS is what all the bickering is really about. Keep it simple I live by If you can not work, ride, train the horse in the "simplest" tack They don't have this shit for dogs No Market It's fact bud.

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