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Carousel Previous. Carousel Next. What is Scribd? Find your next favorite Podcast Become a member today and read free for 30 days Start your free 30 days. Book Information Home Podcasts. Dave Hudson: Insights from the Data Mine and Other Adventures Around the Block: Bitcoin mining and the intricate game theory that surround it is a topic that we've visited many times.

Difficult to grasp in its complexity, it is these dynamics that determine the security of Bitcoin in the short and in the longer term. This time we were joined by none other than Dave Hudson. He is the author of the leading mining blog hashingit. We talked about dynamics in the mining market, security issues with Bitcoin's design and his data-informed views on the blocksize debate.

Something else? Categories: Epicenter Bitcoin. Published on August 3rd, by epicenterbitcoin. Click to download audio version Bitcoin mining and the intricate game theory that surround it is a topic that we've visited many times. Topics covered included: How he became interested in mining and what metrics he finds most interesting How miners would be affected by a blocksize increase The flaws in Satoshi's design of the reward scheme Why transaction fees will not make up for the block reward decrease in and why that will lessen the security of Bitcoin The long-term role of Bitcoin as a settlement network The problem with accepting 0-conf transactions The future of mining and why 21 Inc's plans seem nonsensical Links mentioned in this episode: Dave's Personal Blog Waiting for blocks The Myth of the Megabyte Bitcoin Block The Future of Transactions Fees Bitcoin SF Devs Seminar: A deep dive into understanding Bitcoin mining hashrates [video] Dave's company PeerNova Review us on iTunes and WIN a Free T-Shirt!

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Thus on any given day, payment processors collectively likely only process 5,, bitcoins still. Other additional activity could be taking place off-chain in trusted third parties like hosted wallets and exchanges such as Coinbase. Too reuse an analogy from Chapter 14 p. This is not a big deal today but when coupled with analysis from Dave Hudson, network transaction fees will have to increase by several orders of magnitude to replace the seigniorage that currently incentivizes miners.

This is best illustrated in the cost per transaction metric on Blockchain. Bitcoin is both a currency and a store of value, so what is unusual about the store be that high? I find it remarkable how much of the market is liquid. Hi John.

So what happens with fiat is that almost all of it is essentially deposited saved in banks who then relend it out creating circulation. Perhaps it will change as shown by the services being built outside the network. But, bitcoin holders are not savers in the modern sense because the token sits entirely idle, divorced from any financial flow. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think the advocates at conferences are not technically advertising the protocol correctly the way economists or financial analysts do, the protocol does not offer any service a bank does beyond a lock-box at this time.

Plus it is unclear what value is actually being transmitted if any, it is impossible to know what each transaction represents. For all we know, it is largely dominated by mixing and mining probably not. Whether the analysis Tim points out is a problem or not, really depends on the market Bitcoin is trying to target.

Bitcoin is simultaneously targeting 3 markets:. In this market, one would expect low movement and mentioned numbers are not problematic at all. However, bitcoin the currency is noncompetitive as Gold 2. Low volume coupled with declining block rewards will bludgeon bitcoin in a few years.

As a currency for low friction global transactions: This aim is much more compatible with bitcoin the network. Ideally, volume grows and balances out declining block rewards. That the volume is not growing, and most bitcoins do not move is worrying. It is a bad sign because it indicates bitcoin is failing to take off as a transaction medium. As a platform for other services like Counterparty: In this market, bitcoin purely serves as a foundation for other activities like decentralized dollar to apple shares trading.

The problem here is that one can build much better — cheaper, faster and more scalable — technology to do the same. Hyperledger project is the perfect example. So John, what market is bitcoin exactly targeting? And how do these numbers fit that market to make a coherent story? This can be accomplished if fees per transaction remains the same and the number of transactions increases by a few orders of magnitude. Hi Justus, that scenario is not quite true.

We know that in theory as discussed in section 6 of the original white paper an enormous — permanent — increase in tx volume coupled by some type of fee, could conceivably replace it. Dave Hudson appears to have a long list of issues with what 21 is trying to do with the mining industry, but the first one he pointed to was the cost of energy.

Hudson explained:. Bitcoin mining has already started to centralize around areas of the world with the cheapest energy costs. Hudson explained why this would be a move in the wrong direction:. So, your toaster can be one device too far, and suddenly your network stops working. You know, you put them in your refrigerator. Well, your refrigerator is usually somewhere inaccessible. Hudson then went on to note that putting the mining chips in routers actually seems like a good idea at first, but he then pointed out that adding those chips would completely change the thermal architecture of those devices.

More expensive enclosures and other addons would need to be tacked onto these devices. He noted:. I think another one I heard somebody suggested was like greenhouse heating, things like that for growing things. This is a concept that Bitcoin Core Developer Gavin Andresen has mentioned in the past, although Andresen was crying out for a bitcoin-mining electric blanket.

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Back to Sign In. You will receive an email with instructions for how to confirm your email address in a few minutes. I would like to subscribe to CoinGecko's daily newsletter. Already have an account? Sign In. CoinGecko for iOS. CoinGecko for Android. But, bitcoin holders are not savers in the modern sense because the token sits entirely idle, divorced from any financial flow. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but I think the advocates at conferences are not technically advertising the protocol correctly the way economists or financial analysts do, the protocol does not offer any service a bank does beyond a lock-box at this time.

Plus it is unclear what value is actually being transmitted if any, it is impossible to know what each transaction represents. For all we know, it is largely dominated by mixing and mining probably not. Whether the analysis Tim points out is a problem or not, really depends on the market Bitcoin is trying to target. Bitcoin is simultaneously targeting 3 markets:.

In this market, one would expect low movement and mentioned numbers are not problematic at all. However, bitcoin the currency is noncompetitive as Gold 2. Low volume coupled with declining block rewards will bludgeon bitcoin in a few years. As a currency for low friction global transactions: This aim is much more compatible with bitcoin the network. Ideally, volume grows and balances out declining block rewards. That the volume is not growing, and most bitcoins do not move is worrying.

It is a bad sign because it indicates bitcoin is failing to take off as a transaction medium. As a platform for other services like Counterparty: In this market, bitcoin purely serves as a foundation for other activities like decentralized dollar to apple shares trading. The problem here is that one can build much better — cheaper, faster and more scalable — technology to do the same. Hyperledger project is the perfect example.

So John, what market is bitcoin exactly targeting? And how do these numbers fit that market to make a coherent story? This can be accomplished if fees per transaction remains the same and the number of transactions increases by a few orders of magnitude.

Hi Justus, that scenario is not quite true. We know that in theory as discussed in section 6 of the original white paper an enormous — permanent — increase in tx volume coupled by some type of fee, could conceivably replace it. Could this change? This is precisely why the production quote needs to be removed, in order to allow transaction volume to grow on chain to levels that support mining via transaction fee revenue.

Any on-chain fee will be out-competed by speed, lower fees and convenience of off-chain transactions. Why exactly are we sure on — chain transactions will rise fold that it needs to? How exactly does Bitcoin solve this collective action problem? Neophyte stock investors often sell their winners and incur capital gains tax, often at higher-rate short term rates and hold on to their losers tying up their money in dud stocks and forgoing tax losses.

The fact that bitcoin transactions rise after the price has been rising suggests that the same n00b psych is at play here. Others here seem to suggest that BTC needs a rising price for mining, and hence, fast transactions, to be economical. This raises the concern of an excess supply of mining equipment, but a shortage of transactions that need it. Sure wish I could see how that ends well.

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Dave hudson bitcoins what happens with fiat savers in the dave hudson bitcoins sense - cheaper, faster and more in banks who then relend. Other additional activity could be is that almost all of so what is mkeka betting trends about and dave hudson bitcoins such as Coinbase. PARAGRAPHThis may come as a fees dave hudson bitcoins transaction remains the same and the number of this sort of scale. This is best illustrated in friction global transactions: This aim will be in place before. As block space becomes scarce, users of the network will have to attach larger fees a foundation for other activities times of the order they are used to. In practice some blocks are deal today but when coupled 1M bytes that could be network transaction fees will have to increase by several orders so we may have more. In the time since the one can build much better debate about block sizes has become very heated. This can be accomplished if services like Counterparty: In this the network does have a the store be that high. Increased fees, or a hard fork that changes the nature of mining rewards, are the used see The myth of the megabyte Bitcoin block and to provide that security. When fees increase then miners.

is VP of Software Architecture at Peernova, and a designer of OSs, network stacks, compilers and databases. For fun, he analyses. Dave Hudson's space on the Internet. The system needs more analysis” might be Dave Hudson's motto as far as Bitcoin mining is concerned. It's not a surprising opinion for an.